Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Heard this from a friend over the weekend; it's local and isn't in the news or anything so this is just anecdotal. His son in law has a CCW and carries most of the time. A couple weeks ago he went grocery shopping, and was driving his car with his pistol openly visible in the seat next to him. He did his shopping and went back to his car to unload the groceries, and then he was going to walk to the liquor store right next to the grocery store to get some booze. Well aparently a couple in a truck followed him to his spot assuming he would be leaving after loading his groceries. When he began walking away from his car they honked at him and the girl in the passenger seat yelled at him that they wanted his parking spot and why wasn't he leaving? He told them to **** off that he wasn't done shopping yet. Well the girl in the passenger seat spied the pistol in his car and royally freaked out after seeing it. They called the cops and frantically told them that this man was harassing them with a gun. The cops showed up, arrested him and confiscated his firearm. He spent the weekend in jail, they rescinded his CCW permit, and after they let him out, five police officers (yes five) escorted him home. As far as I know the cops still have his gun.

Again, the story is anecdotal, so I can't verify anything. The moral of the story? If you're carrying concealed, you better make sure it's not visible to anyone!!! If anyone sees your gun, you can sure well expect to be arrested and maybe have your gun/CCW taken away for "inciting panic" or "harrassment" or whatever else they want to charge you with.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

In the majority of states it is legal to openly carry a pistol for protection. See www.opencarry.org

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

pretty F**king dunb that he leaves his firearm on the seat

think there's more to the story

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Seem to have read something recently that requires a firearm to be concealed if carrying with a CCW permit. I could be wrong...I'll try to find the source again.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Yup. Dumb.

Was he charged?

My brother has made 2 stops in the last month where drivers had a pistol in plain view. (console or seat next to them) The drivers were under the impression that "having one in the vehicle is legal - right?"

Yeah - if it's not in plain sight. They are just lucky that a freedom loving liberty protecting "pig":sarc: pulled them over.

They got a warning to KEEP it concealed. No arrests or citations issued in either case and they got an education and kept their weapons.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

The problem is that the laws are different from state to state. And they change over time.

When I was in North Carolina back in the early 90s, you could have a gun in your vehicle, loaded even, as long as it was in plain view. I don't think they had CCW back then, or at least it was a lot harder to get one than it is now.

Locally, about 7 or 8 years ago, some guy was at the mall carrying his piece. I can't remember the specifics, but similar to the OP, someone saw the weapon on the guy and freaked. The cops used to have a substation in the mall, and they were on hand quickly. However, when they found out the guy had a permit and everything checked out, they stood down, and let him go - after advising him to do a better job of concealing the thing in the future.

So it depends on the circumstances. Again, with the OP, I don't know why anyone would leave a weapon in an unattended vehicle these days in plain view. Aside from the hassles, I'd also be worried about coming back to a broken window and a missing weapon.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Yeah they sure are "lucky"

As I recall it reads like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As In you can keep and bear that firearm wherever the hell you want. In your car in your boat in your house wherever. Don't tell me I should thank my lucky stars since officer friendly decided to obey the Constitution.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Tennessee law is a CARRY permit.....does not say concealed, and there is an Attorney General opinion that says concealed is not required, is at the option of the permit holder.

However, some guy in Knoxville a few years ago ran up against a local LEO who apparently did not know the law, and harrassed him to the max over allowed his weapon to be seen while leaving a store.

Copy of the letter he sent to the Knoxville PD:
I (Trevor Putnam ) had been shopping for groceries at the Walker Springs Wal-Mart with my girlfriend, Samantha Williams. I was dressed neatly enough in clean blue Levis and a grey T-shirt, tucked in. My carry firearm, a Colt Concealed Carry Officers Model, was holstered and safed on my right hip in a Brommeland IWB holster. As it was warm that night, I left my jacket in the car, and neglected to un-tuck my shirt over the firearm. We proceeded to shop for groceries for the next 20 minutes. At no time did anyone I encountered in the store raise alarm or cause panic over the sight of my carry firearm. After paying for our groceries, we exited the store and passed Officer Greene in the foyer, who was engaged in conversation with a Wal-Mart Employee. He was located against the wall, to my right. My hands were both on the cart at the time I passed him, my girlfriend was holding my left arm. After I had passed him, I heard Officer Greene exclaim “hey!” and I half-turned to respond to him. He came towards me quickly, and said “You got any ID on you, buddy?” I responded “Yes, I have my carry permit” thinking that he likely wanted to make sure I was licensed to carry a firearm. Both my hands were still on the cart at this time.
He then said “Let me see”, and I then reached for my front pants pocket, when I keep my wallet. At this time, Officer Greene took my wrist in his hand, twisted it back and away, and placed his other hand in my back, forcing me forward into the concrete wall just outside the outer door of the store. This movement caused me to lose my grip on my full cart of groceries, and it began to roll out into the parking lot. As the officer was pushing me forward, I held out my left hand to keep from hitting the wall with full force. When I moved my left hand to protect my face and chest from hitting the wall, Officer Greene shouted “Put ‘em up, keep those hands up there” and pulled my other hand over my head as he pushed my body into the wall. He then kicked and pushed at my ankles with his boots to cause me to stand spread-eagle against the wall. I attempted to inform him that I did have a TN Handgun Carry Permit, and that my mode of carry was legal, to which he yelled “It’s a concealed carry permit, don’t you know what concealed means?” I responded, still calmly, that in TN, “The state code doesn’t specify concealed carry; it’s simply a handgun carry permit.” This statement seemed to make Officer Greene even angrier, and he shouted “Do you think you know more about the law than me? I’ve been a police officer here for 7 years!” I replied “In this case, since we teach the Handgun Carry Permit Course where I work, I’m sure I know this law.” Officer Greene yelled again “I don’t care what you teach, you can’t go around carrying a gun where people can see it. Where do you work?” I informed him that I worked at Coal Creek Armory.
Officer Greene took my wallet, my car keys, both of my pocketknives, and kept his hand on my carry firearm as he called in my driver license to dispatch. In between speaking into his radio, he continued to berate me for carrying my firearm, and emphasized several time that I was incorrect about open carry. I attempted to inform him otherwise, still polite and calm, as I knew I had violated no law. Officer Greene informed me that “My probably cause is that you’re carrying a gun out here, inciting a panic, and that’s all it takes for you to sleep in jail tonight.” I stated, again, that my carry permit was valid, and TN State law permitted handgun carry open or concealed, and that I usually carry concealed. He said that my permit had “better say just that, handgun carry,” but even if it did, he’d just “find some other reason to take me in, disorderly conduct, or inciting a panic. I’ll make some reason.” I was shocked to hear him openly state that he would manufacture probable cause to falsely arrest me, in the hearing of my girlfriend, standing no less than 5 feet away, the Wal-Mart employee he had been speaking with, and the small crowd of bystanders watching.
Officer Greene attempted to draw my firearm to remove it from my holster, but I informed him there were belt snaps on it, and he could just undo them. He did so, and removed firearm and holster from my belt, and then asked me “Is this loaded, one in the chamber? Do you think you can just walk around like that with a loaded gun out in the open?” I confirmed that my defensive firearm was, in fact, loaded and chambered, with the safety on. He asked me “Now, am I gonna find anything else on you? You got anything else I need to know about?” I looked down and saw that he had not removed my Surefire flashlight from my front left pocket, and could feel the tiny CRKT pocketknife in my 5.11 boots pocket. He has missed them while frisking me, and I informed him of their location. He removed them , and then berated me for carrying more than one knife, asking me “what’s your problem, why are you carrying so many knives?” I told him that customers often prefer to buy the knife a salesperson uses, and so I carried one for opening boxes, and two “just in case” to show customers. He registered strong disbelief.
He continued “When I carry off duty, how do you think I carry my gun? It’s concealed, has to be concealed by law. You think the law’s any different for you and me? I’ve been a police officer here in Knoxville for seven years, and I’ve never seen anyone with a permit open carrying.”
I informed him that concealed carry off duty was a KPD regulation(I know a bit about KPD carry regulations, having dated the sister of a KPD officer for 2 years, and have a few more as customers and personal friends), but that a TN Handgun Carry Permit allowed for open or concealed carry. I stated that I had just left work, picked up my girlfriend, and went straight to Wal-Mart, and was carrying just as I had all day at work.
Officer Greene then told me to have a seat, stood in front of me on the bench, and continued to berate me for carrying a firearm. He handed me my wallet, told me to get my permit out from under my driver license. I did so, and handed it to him. He looked at it, and I stated “Handgun carry permit, doesn’t specify concealed.” He stated that that was “no excuse” for walking around with a gun out in the open, and said that I was lucky he was so gentle, because some of his fellow officers would have had me “proned-out on the ground” as soon as I walked past them with a firearm on my hip. “Is that how you think I should deal with you?” I said “However you think it should be handled” and remained quiet, as I did not wish to enter into an argument. I asked him to hand my girlfriend the keys to my car, so that she could put away our groceries, which he did.
At this point his backup arrived in a cruiser, and he told me to stay put, and asked the Red-shirted Loss Prevention Wal-Mart employee to watch me, and then went to speak to the other officer. I looked over at my girlfriend who was understandably upset, and tried to console her. When the officer returned with his partner, he handed me back my work keys, knives and light, and told me to “put them away” and then handed me back my holstered firearm, and said “take it, and conceal it. Do it.” I retrieved my items, put them away, and asked if I was free to leave. He nodded, and I retrieved my girlfriend, and walked to my car.
Points of Complaint-
TCA �39-13-101 - Assault. At no time before, after or during the incident of the 21st was there any probable Officer Greene to lay hands upon me, or to subsequently propel me towards a building wall. Officer Greene or any other officer of the law, as per TCA�39-17-1351, may disarm a permit holder within the course of his duties, but only “when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals[1].” As I had no suspicious appearance and was engaged in no criminal or even suspicious activity, nor indeed any activity other than walking out of a public store, at normal speed with my hands in plain view; reasonable belief that I represented a danger or threat to any person could not have been based simply upon view of a holstered firearm. Officer Greene’s claim that I was “inciting a panic” was absurd, as he was the only person to object to my legally carried firearm during my visit to the store, unless he himself was panicked.
The same opinion makes it clear that Tennessee State law does not require a person granted a Handgun Carry Permit under TCA �39-17-1351, to carry such a firearm concealed. Hence, no probable cause for detainment, frisk, or disarmament existed, other than my legal carry of a handgun. The act of carrying a firearm openly does not, on its own, represent a crime, and therefore, is not, by itself, probable cause for the officer to disarm such a person carrying a firearm legally, as per the Attorney General’s instruction of October 11, 2005[2]. His ignorance of the TN Code’s absence of a requirement that a legally carried handgun be concealed, and the Attorney General’s clarification of this stance, is no excuse for his illegal handling of my person or property.
Illegal Search - As per the Tennessee State Constitution, Sec. 7, TN citizens are to be “secure in their persons… from unreasonable searches and seizures”[3]. As no legal probable cause for my physical detainment existed, Officer Greene’s subsequent frisk and seizure of my personal property, including my wallet, flashlight, keys and carry firearm, constitute an illegal search under TN law. “Officer safety” is not a valid defense to this Section when the underlying cause for the disarmament is legally invalid.
In conclusion, I will state that I appreciate the difficult and demanding job Knoxville Police officers have taken on as their profession, and that they must at all times keep their own safety to the forefront. However, these concerns cannot be permitted to override the individual right of the people of TN to be free from arbitrary, unlawful or uninformed police action as they peaceably go about their business.
I would have been happy to provide identification as asked, and attempted to do so, as asked, and responded politely and respectfully to questions of comments. I would have even complied with a polite request that I conceal my firearm, to prevent uneasiness on the part of other shoppers, even though it is not required by law. However, the officer made the choice to physically handle me in a rough manner, and further subjected me to ill-informed harassment on the statues of the State of Tennessee.
This is utterly unacceptable, both on the part of the officer who made the decision to forcibly restrain, then to attempt to instruct me, and on the part of the police dept that permitted an officer of their department to go so woefully uneducated on TN law for his stated 7 years of employment with the Knoxville Police Dept.
To further hear a duly sworn officer of the law announce, in front of multiple witnesses that he would “find some cause” to wrongfully imprison me, is beyond shocking to me. I can’t imagine what was running through his mind when he made that statement to me, but I cannot and will not assume that such behavior is permitted or condoned by the KPD, unless of course, the Knoxville Police Department’s high-ranking authority figures fail to strongly demonstrate otherwise.
The state of Tennessee recognizes and grants a regulated and restricted right to keep and bear arms, and those who have undergone the arduous process of obtaining a TN Handgun Carry Permit are not the enemy of the police officer, but rather, his ally. At my place of business, we have certified hundreds of people through the TN Handgun Carry Permit Class, and encourage all of them to behave in a safe, sane and above all, legal manner. To have that trust that their Handgun Carry Permit, when finally issued after multiple checks, will not be properly recognized or respected by KPD officers when it is exercised, is inexcusable to myself and all people in the State of Tennessee. Many hundreds of Knoxvillians, new and seasoned shooters alike attained carry permits, in the wake of the Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murders, and they will watch closely for the Department’s official response to this utterly incorrect handling of a TN Carry Permit holder.

1. I have not, at this time, retained counsel for redress of the aforementioned violations of my rights under the law, but reserve the right to do so. I will, should I choose to file suit, copy you on the service as a courtesy.

Lieutenant Ferguson, I appreciate your attention to this matter, and hope that we will correspond further regarding the department’s response. Should you wish to reach me for a meeting regarding this matter, please feel free to contact me at 865.567.1181. "



S T A T E O F T E N N E S S E E
OFFICE OF THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL
PO BOX 20207
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37202
October 11, 2005
Opinion No. 05-154
Civilian Handgun Permits

QUESTIONS
1.Does Tennessee law require that individuals who have been issued civilian handgun
permits under Tenn. Code Ann. � 39-17-1351 carry the handgun(s) concealed?
2.If Tennessee law does not require concealment of a handgun by a civilian handgun
permit holder, may a law enforcement officer legally arrest an individual for carrying a handgun openly in Tennessee if the individual is not carrying it in a prohibited location (e.g., courtroom)?
3.May a law enforcement officer legally seize a handgun carry permit from an
individual when that individual is arrested or charged with a crime?

OPINIONS
1.No. Neither Tenn. Code Ann. � 39-17-1351, nor any other statute governing the
carrying of firearms, requires the holder of a handgun carry permit to carry the handgun in a concealed manner.
2.Yes. A handgun carry permit holder may be arrested for carrying a handgun openly
if he or she is using the handgun to commit a crime, or is otherwise engaged in criminal activity while carrying the handgun.
3.No. Tenn. Code Ann. � 39-17-1352(c) states that a law enforcement officer may only seize a handgun carry permit when directed to do so by the Department of Safety.

ANALYSIS
1.The primary objective of statutory construction is to ascertain legislative intent. If
the language of the statute is clear and unambiguous, courts are supposed to ascertain that intent from the plain and ordinary meaning of the language. Honsa v. Tombigbee Transport Corp., 141 S.W.3d 540 (Tenn. 2004). The plain meaning of the statutes governing, or prohibiting, the carrying of handguns and other weapons indicates that, in situations where the legislature has permitted the carrying of handguns, the legislature intended to authorize the carrying of handguns both openly and concealed. The statutes governing the wearing and carrying of firearms neither expressly prohibit the permit holder from carrying a handgun openly, nor expressly require the permit holder to carry the handgun concealed.

Reading Tenn. Code Ann. � 39-17-1351 in pari materia with �� 39-17-1307 and 1308(a)(2) indicates that the legislature intended to allow carry permit holders to carry their handguns both openly and concealed. If the legislature had intended to require a permit holder to carry his or her handgun concealed, it would have done so by prohibiting the open carrying of a handgun and expressly requiring the concealed carry of a handgun.

2. As set forth in part 1, above, the holder of a handgun carry permit may lawfully carry his or her handgun both openly and concealed. Therefore, a permit holder should not be subject to arrest solely because the handgun is being carried openly. There is nothing, however, in any of the statutes cited in part 1 that would prohibit the arrest of a handgun permit holder for other crimes.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Jeez as if I needed one more reason to hate cops.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

you need to come on down to florida and open carry,
I myself don't have the money or time to sit in jail while I challenge the 2nd and the state law.

But it sounds like you do

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

I'm in Florida now. Nor do I have the time or money. I was making a point not giving advice.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

It's unfortunate that Mr. Putnam (scum-civilian that he is) failed to realize that officers are above the law, and FAR wiser and more intelligent than us mere mortals. It's also unfortunate that upon challenge by Officer Friendly, he failed to assume the correct position (flat on his back, tail between his legs, avoiding direct eye contact, whimpering pitifully while losing bladder control).

The most unfortunate thing in this case is that Officer Friendly was not assisted through the opening of a chipper shredder.

Twice.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Sure, but it's not legal to "incite a panic", "brandish" a firearm, or have a pistol while engaged in "disorderly conduct". All of which are purely subjective and the police officer can arrest you at his pleasure for any of these infractions. Unless you're willing to undergo what the gentleman in TN Andy's post went through, better keep it well hidden. I'd never keep a pistol open in the seat next to me, I prefer to keep it hidden and on me.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

[quote=madfranks;1653945] He told them to **** off that he wasn't done shopping yet. Well the girl in the passenger seat spied the pistol in his car and royally freaked out after seeing it. They called the cops and frantically told them that this man was harassing them with a gun. The cops showed up, arrested him and confiscated his firearm. He spent the weekend in jail, they rescinded his CCW permit, and after they let him out, five police officers (yes five) escorted him home. As far as I know the cops still have his gun.

The moral of the story?[/quote]

Don't be a dick, There was no need to curse anyone. When he told them to F*ck off he started a confrontation, this and having a firearm in plain sight could be considered harassment and brandishing. A "go to jail" crime. It sounds to me like he needs to work on his anger problem. Another question, Why did he wait for the cops to show up? Almost everywhere from the time 911 receives the call till a cop shows up is 10 minutes at least! Plenty of time to vacate the premises.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

OH talk the talk ehh?

Let us know how it turns out if you ever DO decide to walk what you're talkin.:ok:

This it Texas - Not DC. its a State law. That's how we do it here.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Do you disagree?

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

No - However - It is what it is.

I was tryin to point out that not evereone in LE are our enemy. We DO have people on the inside. No need to preach to the converted:bear_rolleyes:

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

I almost put a disclaimer in my original post in this thread saying that I didn't mean it as a personal attack at you or your brother since I knew it would come out like that. I posted what I did at the people who think we should be grateful for the table scraps Big Brother gives us.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Don't be a dick, There was no need to curse anyone. When he told them to F*ck off he started a confrontation, this and having a firearm in plain sight could be considered harassment and brandishing. A "go to jail" crime. It sounds to me like he needs to work on his anger problem. Another question, Why did he wait for the cops to show up? Almost everywhere from the time 911 receives the call till a cop shows up is 10 minutes at least! Plenty of time to vacate the premises.[/QUOTE]

+1 And an apology right after telling them to F-off would have been a good place to start.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

Exactly. Don't draw unnecessary attention to yourself. Ever.

If someone pisses you off, laugh it off and move on. Yeah we all have our moments, I know I do too. But the best advice is to not ever be confrontational over something as minor as a parking place.

Prevention > Cure

Even if no firearms issues were involved, you are just asking to have your car keyed or a window smashed if you are a dick. Right or wrong..... I grew up in Houston, talk smack and that would happen.

Concealed carry permit means that here in TX. I needs to be CONCEALED. lol

If it is in the open it is considered a treat. Throw a towel over it at a minimum. Or glove box. Me? I wouldn't WANT to leave it in the open. Someone might break in and steal it.

Honestly that is my biggest concern about my firearm. Leave it in the car at work to get stolen, or leave it at home? Carrying it in the office is a no-go.

I worry about leaving it unattended.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

pa doesnt require a ccw to open carry....we are an open carry state so it should be 100% ok to open carry......SHOULD BE are the key words there. expect to be harassed frequently if you open carry. lots of the guys that do it carry legal references with them to inform those who are clueless. even though it is legal to open carry it seems like way more trouble then its worth. id much rather just ccw deal with a lil physical discomfort then get thrown out of places and threatened with jail time when i go out in public.

Re: Better keep your concealed handgun concealed!
 

New Mexico considers your car as property like in, the same as your house. You can have it anywhere in the car. You can also carry open most places. What they don't really like is one that is somewhat concealed. They like it open or concealed as the words indicate. You can carry more than one, but only one concealed... with a permit of course.

I keep it in the console when I am in the truck. I don't like having it on the seat or dash, etc. Low profile. But if I'm going to or coming from the range, I may have several hanging around the truck. I only have the 40 loaded at that time though. In the console.